> You don't have a laptop or desktop for those things?
> Whilst I may not represent the average person, I have no need to check bank statements or manage insurance immediately
I think a lot of people check to make sure how much money they have before they make some purchases, especially big ones. Or, they check with this card declined (might need to move some money from one account to another or use a different card).
I teach high school and see students doing this all the time when buying food for lunch. I can't imagine it's any less prevalent amongst adults of a certain generation.
I certainly need to know how much money I have at any given time when I'm shopping. Seems fairly privileged (not in a bad way) to not need to think about that.
I take your point, but I'll also make the point that I'm organised and relatively self disciplined when it comes to spending. If I have to check my back account before any big expenditures, whilst on the go and requiring a smart phone, then that represents some kind of failure of self discipline (outside of emergency health situations).
Having said that, I do have an app that tells me how much is left on my debit card, but I only recharge it from laptop / desktop at home - I tend to not let it get low enough that I can't get through a day.
Can't deny a certain level of privilege, but will say it's been earned through self discipline. Everyone's situations are different, however.
Microsoft have been bashed on the daily since forever. There's no way you joined the company without knowing it was happening prior to you joining, at the time of you joining, and after you joining.
It's true. As a matter of fact I credit a lot of my career to being made fun of on IRC in the 1990s for running mIRC client for Windows, because you were not "leet" if you didn't run Linux or FreeBSD, which took my down a huge rabbit-hole of Linux and coding for many years, which is how I know anything in the first place. I'm in the tiny minority of people in big tech who didn't go to college.
The bashing on MSFT has really ramped up in the last 6 months though
Rather than saying that microsoft bashing has ramped up, I'd say that it is getting closer to it's standard levels.
Microsoft experience a sort of reputational resurgence in the tech world these past few years with some commitment to open source contribution and a really nice pivot towards linux and cloud.
Yes and you're in a unique position to influence the internal culture. Not saying send emails to executives but talk about things during lunch with coworkers?
Ah, is that not going to college part why you're loathe to give up such a good gig? Surely by now your CV speaks for itself, although I suppose in Redmond, where else are you going to go.
It is, although considering my age (41), I would hope the college thing is not very important anymore. The only time in recent history that I've been ghosted after mentioning no degree (when asked) is ByteDance a few years back, and I don't think I'd want to work there anyways.
Google has offices in Kirkland. Amazon and Meta are big employers here, with Meta paying the best, but both of those companies have their own issues which are probably worse than just being made fun of ..
Do you think you're really changing anybody's mind raving like this, copy-pasting the same garbage on every AI-related post? Do you genuinely believe you're penetrating hearts and minds, causing people to reevaluate their choices?
Put another way: do you truly see insulting people's sense of agency with cutesy misspellings of other people's names as an effective way to making the world a better place?
Your messages read like the ravings of those who think putting a dollar sign in Micro$oft was really sticking it to the man. Nothing short of an irritating, rumbling, moaning noise.
Resizing windows is easier when you don't have to grab the corner. Some people are talking about holding a key to resize on Linux but I don't want to be forced to use the keyboard.
My favourite solution on macOS is an app called Swish which lets you do trackpad/Magic Mouse gestures to throw windows into corners, along edges, etc.
> Some people are talking about holding a key to resize on Linux but I don't want to be forced to use the keyboard.
You don't have to use your keyboard.
For example I never use my mouse's DPI button which is a little button next to the wheel mouse. You can remap that to whatever key you need to hold to resize a window and now you have a fully mouse driven solution for resizing.
See, that makes sense to me. Build it all into one device, super simple, super clever.
For me who always uses a Magic Trackpad, doing gestures is the equivalent to holding down that wee button. So I think we see eye on eye on this.
It's the people who can't imagine that you'd ever have your hands away from the keyboard, so everything that could reasonably be done with a keyboard can and must be done with a keyboard, who get up my back.
Using a trackpad gesture is just as quick, easier, more spatially natural, and only uses one hand.
My left hand is not always on my keyboard. I'm not always typing. I'm not modelling 100% of my computer usage after "how to get RSI the fastest"; sometimes, I allow myself to lean back in my chair and just scroll the web, documents, photos etc. from time to time.
Definitely not, many of swish gestures require you to move the mouse cursor to the title bar, which takes time, also holding a key and performing a simpler gesture can’t be slower than performing a more complicated gesture (which it needs to be to deconflict with regular mouse use)
Also many gestures have a delay built in so you can cancel or double down for a different functionally (close windows vs close app), so it’s slower by design.
> easier
It’s harder because you have to memorize more gestures and perform more complicated ones.
> more spatially natural
That makes no sense, the spatial movements are the same, can you give an example for resizing?
> and only uses one hand.
Yes, that’s the only potential benefit, unless, of course, your other hand is always near a corner, so it doesn’t matter
> I'm not always typing
That's fine, you don't need to type to have your left hand rest near the left near corner of the keyboard (it doesn’t even have to rest on the home row since you only need the corner)
> I'm not modelling 100% of my computer usage after "how to get RSI the fastest"
Well, you're, you've just moved your RSI to your right hand
Also hands have same length, so leaning back doesn't prevent leaving one finger on a modifier
Anyway, place your hands wherever you like them, it’s just that none of your arguments support it.
> [...] because you have to memorise more gestures and perform more complicated ones.
Oh no, how will I ever remember (checks notes) swiping. On a Trackpad!? Insane.
> More spatially natural
> That makes no sense.
I swipe left, window goes left. I swipe right, window goes right. I swipe up, window goes up. I swipe down, windows goes down.
It's as close to actually flicking the windows around the space provided without getting a touch screen.
> and only uses one hand
We agree.
> unless, of course, your other hand is always near a corner
Corner of what?
> you don't need to type to have your left hand rest [...]
Big assumption that I'm left-handed. The modifiers on the right-hand side of some keyboards, including on notebooks, are seriously iffy.
> [...] rest near the left near corner of the keyboard
If my other arm isn't anywhere close to the computer, then it's nowhere near the keyboard, let alone the corner.
> you've just moved your RSI to your right hand
How often am I swiping windows? Barely.
Are you also saying any use of the trackpad or mouse, no matter how little, is automatically RSI?
Whereas having your fingers nearly-permanently at the ready over (or near the corner of) the keyboard is A-OK?
> Also hands have the same length, so leaning back doesn't prevent leaving one finger on a modifier
Back to the RSI angle because my hands are not glued to the keyboard. The way you seem to think so tells me you only sit at a desktop when using a computer, you never slouch, you never slump, you never use a notebook computer.
> it's just that none of your arguments support it.
> sometimes, I allow myself to lean back in my chair and just scroll
WHAT??! This cannot be allowed!! /s
It's clear from reading programmer geek thoughts on peripherals over the years that autistic types love the "Use keyboard 100% of the time!" dogma because it is black-and-white thinking. The idea of someone knowing how to do things in a multitude of ways and changing it up based on mood is displeasing.
It's tiring to discuss because it's never that they could ever sympathise with my usage, it's that they are physically (yes, physically!) incapable of imagining anything other than their own usage.
See also: Linux users who insist all you need is a terminal and vim. Exact same thing.
>> sometimes, I allow myself to lean back in my chair and just scroll
> WHAT??! This cannot be allowed!! /s
We just lean back with the keyboard and scroll with the Space key. Also using cwm, I move my windows with Super+{h,j,k,l} and resize them with Super+Shift+{h,j,k,l}.
Rather than making people run commands in Terminal, it would be more ideal to just tell people to try to run the app, then go to System Settings -> Privacy & Security -> scroll down until they see the Open Anyway button.
It'll be a skill they can use for any unsigned app and you can have cute screenshots. The Terminal command, on the other hand, is a huge barrier to entry.
A study from 16 years ago is hardly relevant anymore. Back in 2003, people were still familiar with Office 2003's layout; most people have long since forgotten that layout or never learnt it in the first place.
The author doesn't discuss users' existing familiarity with Office 2003 and they only mention the word 'training' once, that "software design to interact with technology should require the least amount of training as possible" whilst never acknowledging that training in, and even qualifications in, the use of the Office suite was very much a thing in the 1990s and early 2000s.
Even then, the most problems were had in Excel. Advanced usage of Excel is done by technical people who would have had some training. Word and PowerPoint weren't shown to have significant difference in usability; arguably, Word is the program most people forced to use the Office suite spend their time in.
Never mind the ways by which the Ribbon and computers have changed since Office 2007. Options moved around, the Ribbon height reduced, screens having gotten wider to compress fewer options into submenus…
The author states at the end of their conclusion:
> In order to determine if the result of the study with respect to the Excel 2007 application persists and are not due to the learning curve the experiment can be repeated with users having at least three years using this version.
Do you know if the author or anybody else followed up?
It would be more interesting to see a comparison between Office 365 now that the interface has effectively become the de facto standard (same as Windows, macOS, mobile, tablet, and the web version) and Google Sheets (which retains the menus, toolbar, etc.).
I'm no lover of the Ribbon myself but I feel like there's better evidence for it not being the ideal interface than this which wouldn't have convinced me even at the time.
This isn't the proof that'll bring down the titan.
>> the study with respect to the Excel 2007 application persists...can be repeated with users having...years using this version.
> Do you know if the author or anybody else followed up
I would love to see more recent and similarly thoughtful work on the exact same subject. If I find more, I'll try to remember to come back here and comment. Definitely, I am interested in the clearest evidence regarding whether either paradigm is "actually" more usable, and not just the result of some confounding variable(s).
With a null hypothesis that the classic toolbar is no better than the ribbon, I just wanted to see some data (instead of assuming that what users have now has to be more efficient for those users just because it's what the market-leading product has been giving users for about two decades).
Yeah I realized that only now, for some reason when I was on mobile and I was looking into this the demo video was not loading at all. I would love to retract my comment :(
> Whilst I may not represent the average person, I have no need to check bank statements or manage insurance immediately
I think a lot of people check to make sure how much money they have before they make some purchases, especially big ones. Or, they check with this card declined (might need to move some money from one account to another or use a different card).
I teach high school and see students doing this all the time when buying food for lunch. I can't imagine it's any less prevalent amongst adults of a certain generation.
I certainly need to know how much money I have at any given time when I'm shopping. Seems fairly privileged (not in a bad way) to not need to think about that.
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