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The Cost Of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years Of Regret (npr.org)
168 points by ComputerGuru on March 17, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 74 comments


From the comments on that article: "My late uncle, Kenneth Hand, a captain of the 111th combat engineers, wouldn’t tolerate criticism of Red Cross canteens or their personnel.

In 1944, he led a recon mission to find a river crossing for our army in southern France. He came under extremely heavy German machine gun and mortar fire and was forced to advance through a minefield to get his men to cover. In the process, he stepped on a mine and was severely wounded, losing his leg. Their mission being vital, he ordered his men to leave him and find that crossing, which they did. Although they sent a medic to recover their officer, upon finding him the medic refused to give him morphine, saying that he didn’t have enough to waste on a man who would die in a few minutes anyway. He was then abandoned and listed as dead.

Some time later, a Red Cross doughnut wagon happened by. One of the two person crew noticed Kenny laying unconscious in the minefield and went to check if he was alive. Finding a pulse, they brought him to the doughnut wagon, which was cleared out and converted to an emergency operating room. These two Red Cross canteen workers performed major surgery on the spot and saved his life at the risk of their own.

What’s a few cents for doughnuts compared to that?"


What was the donut wagon doing in a minefield?

Imagine, in a minefield, under heavy machine gun and mortar fire - "Donuts anyone?".


This is the problem with minefields: they hang around after the front has moved. I doubt they were being shelled and fired upon at that exact moment.


Everyone knew the Canadian combat military mission in Afghanistan was finally going to end in 2011, when the Tim Hortons' outlet closed down. Donut availability can have a predictive (or reactive) nature.


The KAF boardwalk Timmies was the first I'd ever had; it's surprisingly good.


Impressive, but what sort of major surgery are canteen workers qualified to perform?


'Twas only a flesh wound.


I had a largely positive experience when I began charging for a site I created.

Initially, the site was free, but from day 1 I made it clear that we were going to charge a membership fee at some point. That, I think, was the biggest thing.

I also gave the first several thousand members - who had already become the most vocal and most dedicated members - a chance to earn a free lifetime membership if they completed certain goals that would help me to test the site's functionality. Things like sending ten private messages, making ten forum posts, things like that.

The business wasn't a smashing success, but this part of it was, I think. Some members left once we went for-pay because they simply weren't willing to pay for things online, basically. However, there was no rancor or anything.


My site was free initially as well and when I was young and naive, I even intended to keep it free. Reality caught up and after years I announced that I gonne charge a lousy Euro.

80% of the users stuck and paid, but there are indeed a few that hold an utterly irrational resentment. It goes so far that they prefer to discuss this matter for hours and hours and use some crappy software, instead of just paying the damn 12 Euro a year.

Then I figured that a Euro was a bit too low. In Germany, VAT is usually included if you see a price as a private customer, unlike in the US, where you get the VAT added at the checkout. So, 19% VAT on a Euro is a substantial cut.

I increased prices to 2€, which worked alright, only a few people got upset, but again, many continued to use the service. Still, I feel like I'm now locked in at a relatively low price point and it gets tougher to justify another rise in price.


> Some members left once we went for-pay because they simply weren't willing to pay for things online

or weren't able to


You are right, of course. If it wasn't too late, I'd edit my initial reply.


The original Planet Money podcast episode is a bit longer and has some more detail, by the way:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/07/13/156723516/episode-...

I've been listening to Planet Money since it started during the 2007 meltdown. It's been a great resource for explaining some of the tougher financial stories in an easier fashion while keeping it interesting. Definitely a recommended podcast.


The story reminded me of the Planet Money about coke being 5 cents for 70 years.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/11/15/165143816/why-coke...


This touches on an interesting human behavior; the difference between $0.00 and $0.01 is huge, much larger than $0.01 to $0.02, or even $0.01 to $0.99 - this is talked about (among other interesting topics) in the book "Predictably Irrational" by Dan Ariely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_irrational

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X68dm92HVI


I suspect the penny gap is more due to the process of paying for something. That's not completely irrational. Unless you're paying in cash, you are either cluttering up your bank statement, or having to endure an annoying series of logins, confirmations, etc.

Where's the payment equivalent of a facebook "Like" button? Now that I mention it, facebook are probably well positioned to introduce such a thing.


I suspect the penny gap is more due to the process of paying for something

That is not the point Ariely makes. Charging anything at all changes the nature of the transaction from a social one to a market one and completely changes the context in which people view it. It's worth reading.


>Where's the payment equivalent of a facebook "Like" button?

It's on Amazon.com and they have a patent for it. :(


Has anyone really declined to pay for something because it would be another line item on their bank account?

I get what you're saying and I agree that the process is a hindrance at the most basic level, I just don't get that specific example.


I still wish Flattr would take off...


"The problem isn't the price — $10 for a good turkey dinner might not be such a bad deal — but that you're being charged in the first place. It changes the relationship. For the veterans, the Red Cross went from being a little like Mom, to being the corner store."

Pretty much sums up why that is.


One thing I learned early on in business is: it's always easier to lower your prices than to raise them, so set your initial valuation high; you can always drop it later if you need to.


In the enterprise space, I have learned that if you drop your price for one customer, your other customers will quickly learn of the new "price floor."


While I don't deal with enterprise sales, I do security consulting for the enterprise, and one thing I do is never lower my prices. Instead, I'll just add additional value over top, e.g. an extra day of consulting. Yes, it has the same effect for me, but it doesn't get my clients in the habit of paying me less money.


Everyone likes getting something "for free". For an enterprise-level customer, another day of consulting. For smaller customers, a free t-shirt or water bottle. Goes back to the whole perceived-value thing.


If the Federal government is a customer, you may be sued for fraud if they aren't the customer getting the best price.


No, you bill at the level your contract states that you charge. Doesn't matter what you have anyone else pay you it's what you negotiated through the bidding/negotiation process.


Many Federal contracts explicitly state that they must be the lowest rate being charged to any customer.


Usually the enterprise sales process will include a confidentiality agreement which includes the sale price, discounts, etc for that customer. Usually this is enough for most transactions.


In my experience, confidentiality agreements are not effective or enforceable.


The medical equipment company I used to work for had a price for its gear that included a starting discount of 5% for any sale, to make the customer feel like they're getting a good deal.


I seriously thought this was going to be about diabetes or sugar addiction or something :-)


Predictably Irrational has a good take on this (Social Norms vs Market Norms). One of it's key points -- once you've changed from a Social Norm to a Market Norm, it's really hard to change back.


And that is why Netflix customers freaked out when it was announced that they had to start paying for Netflix Streaming.


not really. i signed up because the product was dvd + steaming at the time. then it became one or the other (or paying twice).

It was never advertised as dvd plus free trial steaming. if it was, was in small print.


Interesting historically (particularly that the U.S. Secretary of War bowed to a British request to have the Red Cross charge), but the parallels between holding a grudge for the perception of being treated poorly coming out of combat, and being asked in peacetime to pay for a previously free service, are weak.

My Dad, a (peacetime) Marine Lieutenant, had a Sergeant who was livid about being asked by the Red Cross volunteers to pay for coffee on his return trip from the Korean war in the early 50s. That left a lasting impression my Dad, who's saying on that was, "A Marine Never forgets." He never supported the Red Cross, though he was hardly stingy when it came to paying for things he thought deserved to be paid for, and that included accepting raised prices.

There's an element of moral indignation in the story that's missing from "Oh, snap, this used to be free and now I have to pay for it. That sucks."


>the parallels between holding a grudge for the perception of being treated poorly coming out of combat, and being asked in peacetime to pay for a previously free service, are weak

That was my thought exactly.

I think the main difference between the two scenarios is competition. There is only one Red Cross, but for most apps out there, there are likely a few others that do almost exactly the same thing. So, if one starts charging, you can decide to either switch to a different, free alternative, or you can decide to pay for the app.

Being able to even make that decision is empowering (so what if donuts cost money? muffins are still free!). In the Red Cross's case, there was no choice; the soldiers had no power: you either pay for a donut, or you get nothing.



100% spot on. It's much easier to go from $1/mo to $10/mo than to go from $0/mo to $1/mo


There's a bigger thing around this too. One thing I've noticed visiting a lot of companies is that memories of good times can negatively impact assessments of the present.

People with very good work conditions may always long for that time when their favorite manager was there, or when the company was riding a wave of success. Their conditions may be objectively better than many other companies but because they had a great situation at one point, everything else pales in comparison. It can take years for that to change.


It is important to look down as well as up when assessing one's position. However, such behavior is not natural, since our animal survival chances are general higher when we always strive for more, than if we grow complacent.


I think this stems from the memory these people hold that the item (whatever it is, doughnut, site access etc) was once free. People will wonder "why did this change?". It could be many things, but people will most likely jump to the easiest conclusion, the seller is greedy.

Using the doughnuts analogy, I wonder how things would have worked out if they continued to give away the plain doughnuts for nothing, but added a new line of premium iced doughnuts which attracted a charge? Personally I wouldn't mind, and I think that a lot of people would be ok with this.

Stemming from this, you really need to have a good reason to charge people for something they were previously using for free.

Personally, I don't think you can start charging for something that was previously free (without significant value add). By all means offer a paid upgrade with particular value add, but never do the wrong thing by your (thus far) loyal users.


Does anyone have any resources pertaining to how people react to generous grandfathering? Like say you release a free service, then make it paid, but give everyone who signed up while it was free a 1 year loyalty bonus, can anyone give their experiences or link to others who have successfully/unsuccessfully tried this?


I gave early members free membership to my site if they completed certain beta-testing requirements.

I think it was a net positive, though it's hard to measure. Statistically, these grandfathered members have outspent other members. However, it's hard to say whether or not they might have spent even more had they not been given free lifetime grandfathered access.

A lot of these members have gone out of their way to buy perks for themselves and memberships for other members.

I should mention my site was essentially a community site, so there was a strong connection with other members - they wanted their favorite members to remain on the site. Additionally these have been the most active members when it comes to referring new paying members to the site.

To additionally complicate things, by giving grandfathered memberships to excellent community members, I think that these "anchors to the community" attract members in ways that would be completely impossible to quantify - I don't know how to measure the number of people that joined the site simply because they saw it did have a core of dedicated members.

To sum it up, for a community-based site, grandfathered community members quite possibly do more than pay for their grandfathered membership status.

I'm sure the returns are far less for other types of online businesses. You might join a community because you see that it has dedicated members, but I wouldn't necessarily be more likely to order a sweater from an online retailer because a bunch of people have grandfathered free shipping upgrades or something.


I did just that with LiberWriter.com (people who got in at an earlier set of prices got to keep them) and people were generally very happy and positive about it.


Well, of course. The question is "did you make more money with that than if you hadn't grandfathered?"


Who knows: there are too many variables at play, and it's not worth doing experiments with lest people raise a stink.


Yep, but that's why data would be valuable (although I don't think anyone will have any, due to the reasons you mentioned).


Due to the many variables, I think even rigorous data for one application might not apply to others. LiberWriter's customers are different from customers of other web businesses...


This really doesn't seem analogous to me.

>>>For the veterans, the Red Cross went from being a little like Mom, to being the corner store.

Who really thinks of Google, for example, as Mom?


For lack of a better word, geeks.

Edit: People tend to have feelings regarding companies and institutions. People who are interested in tech and computers have stronger feelings about companies like Google, Apple and Microsoft. At least in Google's early years, people had a tendency to see Google as a figurative Mom, more interested in providing the best search engine and some nice free services than making money at any cost.


I'm a geek ... and I think of Google as (my) "big brother".


I'm a geek and a huge google fanboi and I don't see Google any differently than any other company. They just happen to (currently) have things I like a lot.


I'm a geek, and I increasingly think of Google as Big Brother.


In "Nineteen Eighty-Four" they talked about telescreens with cameras and microphones spying on you in your home.

In 2013, we willingly have webcams and mobile phones which can conceivably monitor us the same way, and governments that are willing to do so.

Google ain't the only Big Brother.


See? I rest my case.

I think even people who love Apple to the point of slavishness think of them as a company, not as a Mom.


I have Apple products, but I think of them as "Fahrenheit 451" (Telling me what I can and can't have).


The #1 governmental tool for monitoring everyone right now is Gmail.

We should all be using encrypted mail all the time, but instead we just feed our mail to the FBG (Federal Bureau of Google).


Well, World of Goo did this somewhat tongue in cheek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k...

But tongue in cheek is only funny when it's _somewhat_ true.


So where is the grudge against airlines charging for checked bags?


Probably lost among the billion other reasons people hate airlines.


People generally hate most airlines for a variety of reasons. Baggage fees have certainly contributed, but it's hard to pick out any single thing.


Many frequent travelers don't check bags anyway. The most frequent travelers have elite status on an airline that might allow them to check bags for free.


There's two angles I see:

1) Business travelers can expense the checked bag fee, so they don't care.

2) Other travelers still have a free option: the carry-on bag.

I always board my flights last for various reasons, and I've noticed how people are literally hanging over the ropes to get in the boarding line when their section is called. It started making sense when the staff would announce that ALL overheads were now full. People were packing even more into those carryons.


Which is why the checked bag fee never made any sense to me. They should be charging a carry-on fee instead. Carry-ons are a PITA for the airlines, with all the time the stowage adds to the boarding process.


> _They should be charging a carry-on fee instead._

At least one airline, Spirit Air, already does. I am sure more will follow this practice.


but they are also a PITA for the passenger. It's all a matter of creating problems to sell solutions.

and if it wasn't, lobbying sure made thanks to the liquid rule.


They don't charge the people that count. When I worked for an airline, we were told to just ignore complaints from customers who flew less than several thousand miles per year.


There's plenty of people bear a grudge for that, believe you me.


For me it's well behind the grudge about them rubbing my ballsack, but alas I can't swim home to my parents and I don't want to have to sit in "time out" for hours so I just keep my mouth shut in the airport until the awful experience is over.


I've heard lots. You haven't?


It's in choosing JetBlue and one free bag.



pinboard.in is always an interesting example. It started at a really low one-time sign-up fee, which grows as more users sign up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=702914.

It used to be something like a dollar on launch. Wonder how it follows inflation, though.


This is why micropayments for individual pieces of content have never taken off, and never will.




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